51

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

themacmeister wrote:

Feature Suggestion:

1 or 2 more-realistic backdrops (like 'city' or 'space'): priority low

Yes, I need a "haunted house" one for my "Ghosts Valley" level and future levels with planks and ghosts smile

themacmeister wrote:

I think the green hills on the horizon can be improved.
I would actually like photorealistic backdrops of cliffs etc. as in SMB, but I realise that this may be impossible with the current engine.

I love this background ! I think this is because it isn't photorealistic.
In old Neverball versions, there was such a background, it was nice, but I prefer this new one very much.

52

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

themacmeister wrote:

Feature Suggestion.

More spectacular/interesting reaction on reaching of goal.

eg. sound - homer simpson - "WooHoo!!" smile

The present sound is suitable for me.
I think it will be funny to add such sound but this will not fit with the Neverball's theme.
However, a more spectacular sound will be needed for wrap goals smile

53

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

themacmeister wrote:

I think we could also discuss the following:

Warp entities, and their eventual inclusion in neverball challenge mode

Subjects to discuss can include possible appearance, placement, levels skipped,  and available levels that are good candidates.

I'm not against such wrap entities.
The problem (is it a problem?) is for the challenge records: if such wraps are added, players will be forced to take them systematically to beat time records and to avoid (not hard wink) them to beat most coins records.

themacmeister wrote:

How many levels should be skipped. Half of SMB? 3 and 5 level warps? any set amount?

In my mind, in a challenge mode you play ALL levels, thus I prefer reducing the skipped levels number to max 3.
It could be interesting to put wrap goals in the skipped levels, so there will be several ways of wrap-progressing in the set.

54

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Tuxmym wrote:

How much time you would have needed to reach such levels if you was forced to start from the first one after each gameover ?

Agreed. I thought we were discussing a new challenge mode, with practice mode being almost the same as gameplay is at present, with the challenge mode for a one game attack on an entire set.

Otherwise, there would need to be a save game feature, so you could continue from the last level with the same number of balls (if you'll excuse the french) as when you saved.

There was speculation of a non-linear progression through the game, but this was too far off the original SMB similarity specs, so I think a warp system and practice mode *along with* a save game feature for the challenge mode would probably be the best compromise. Otherwise challenge mode would be identical to gameplay now...??

There are many out there who think a one ball/game run of 25 levels is now achievable on easy, hard and mym set 1 (I don't believe this yet) so now people would like a mechanism to challenge that score/time too. This also puts severe pressure on players when time is getting low, and you are near your goal...

Does anyone have any opinions on a new practice/challenge model?

themacmeister

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

55

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

added this bug: "z value detection for fallout is done with the lowest lump but should be with the min of the lowest lump AND the lowest path_corner"
Proposed by Canuck and already encountered by me.

56

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

I am not sure if we have reached a consensus on any real gameplay issues here yet.

It appears that the challenge mode, which I thought was unanimously praised at first, is now losing its flavour. Of course I could not do any of tuxmym's level sets this way. Maybe there is a place for 3 modes. Training, Standard and Challenge. Then we would have the best of both worlds.

Don't misunderstand me. I am not against any new gameplay styles, but the thought of getting through tuxmym's set 1 or 2 in a single game throttles the imagination. I have taken more than 400 attempts to get through a single level of his before!!

This is where the constructive use of warps will be vital. Especially to avoid the most difficult levels en route (look mym - more french!). I remember SMB having warps as a different coloured goal, which may or may not appeal to RLK.

Anyways, without more discussions, and some type of compromise, I fear rlk will not know which direction to take for the best public acceptance of 1.5.x.

themacmeister

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

57

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

themacmeister wrote:

I am not sure if we have reached a consensus on any real gameplay issues here yet.

It's undeniable.

themacmeister wrote:

It appears that the challenge mode, which I thought was unanimously praised at first, is now losing its flavour. Of course I could not do any of tuxmym's level sets this way. Maybe there is a place for 3 modes. Training, Standard and Challenge. Then we would have the best of both worlds.

Despite this challenge mode is hard, I love this concept and it must be added for high level players.
3 modes is a solution, but this have a chance to bring some confusion to the player.
Maybe the training mode could allow unlocking levels and then we could keep only two modes.
I think there must be a reward for finishing the challenge mode of a set. (being in the top 3 isn't sufficient)
We could discuss about this reward.

themacmeister wrote:

This is where the constructive use of warps will be vital. Especially to avoid the most difficult levels en route (look mym - more french!). I remember SMB having warps as a different coloured goal, which may or may not appeal to RLK.

But warps (spell edit) will be hard to reach, the player will certainly not risk losing a life for accessing them, lives will be precious in the challenge mode.
I thought wraps could be for high level players trying to beat the set records.

themacmeister wrote:

Anyways, without more discussions, and some type of compromise, I fear rlk will not know which direction to take for the best public acceptance of 1.5.x.

I agree. We need to discuss more about that. We need players' opinion, and the rlk's reaction to these new point of view...

58 (edited by themacmeister 2005-05-10 11:37:22)

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Tuxmym wrote:

Despite this challenge mode is hard, I love this concept and it must be added for high level players.
3 modes is a solution, but this have a chance to bring some confusion to the player.
Maybe the training mode could allow unlocking levels and then we could keep only two modes.
I think there must be a reward for finishing the challenge mode of a set. (being in the top 3 isn't sufficient)
We could discuss about this reward.

Agreed. I think you cannot have unlimited attempts at challenge mode, and because it will take much longer, there must be some kind of 'save game' feature, to continue next time, with same balls, time and coins as at last level reached. Of course, the challenge must be an entire set, and there must be a good reward for completing this.

The Practice levels could be exactly as neverball is now, with coins and unlocking levels.

Tuxmym wrote:

But wraps will be hard to reach, the player will certainly not risk losing a life for accessing them, lives will be precious in the challenge mode.
I thought wraps could be for high level players trying to beat the set records.

Yes, warps (note the spelling tuxmym, wrap has a completely different meaning in english) should be difficult to reach, but not so difficult that a normal player cannot *attempt* to reach it. Some of the best (of multiple) goals is a second one that can only be reached in very fast time. A good example is tuxmym's bounce.map. This second goal could be made the warp  I still think that this can be an option on challenge mode, but designed and placed only so very good players can reach them accurately or in time.

It may also be wise to lock out the challenge mode, until RLK's easy and hard levels have both been completed. This would stop beginner players from getting frustrated, and act as a reward too. What do you think?

themacmeister

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

59

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

themacmeister wrote:

there must be some kind of 'save game' feature, to continue next time, with same balls, time and coins as at last level reached.

I agree. I'll add it in the TODO list.

themacmeister wrote:

The Practice levels could be exactly as neverball is now, with coins and unlocking levels.

But with unlimited lives.

themacmeister wrote:

(note the spelling tuxmym, wrap has a completely different meaning in english)

Oops...

themacmeister wrote:

warps should be difficult to reach, but not so difficult that a normal player cannot *attempt* to reach it. Some of the best (of multiple) goals is a second one that can only be reached in very fast time. A good example is tuxmym's bounce.map. This second goal could be made the warp  I still think that this can be an option on challenge mode, but designed and placed only so very good players can reach them accurately or in time.

Ok. I'll have to modifiy some levels to allow several warps (in my 2 sets).

themacmeister wrote:

It may also be wise to lock out the challenge mode, until RLK's easy and hard levels have both been completed. This would stop beginner players from getting frustrated, and act as a reward too. What do you think?

I agree, good idea. Maybe we could lock my sets in the same manner: I've seen several players starting playing Neverball with my sets and then giving up in playing Neverball because they were frustrated by my levels...
When you start playing Neverball, you don't realise you can progress a lot in the ball's control and thus you can quickly conclude some levels are too hard and you'll never manage to finish them. Locking the access to my levels until easy and hards levels are finished could prevent this reasoning.

60

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Tuxmym wrote:
themacmeister wrote:

there must be some kind of 'save game' feature, to continue next time, with same balls, time and coins as at last level reached.

I agree. I'll add it in the TODO list.

Yes, must be very accurate, playtime only.

Tuxmym wrote:
themacmeister wrote:

The Practice levels could be exactly as neverball is now, with coins and unlocking levels.

But with unlimited lives.

OK, no game over, but maybe continue/main menu buttons?!

Tuxmym wrote:
themacmeister wrote:

warps should be difficult to reach, but not so difficult that a normal player cannot *attempt* to reach it. Some of the best (of multiple) goals is a second one that can only be reached in very fast time. A good example is tuxmym's bounce.map. This second goal could be made the warp  I still think that this can be an option on challenge mode, but designed and placed only so very good players can reach them accurately or in time.

Ok. I'll have to modifiy some levels to allow several warps (in my 2 sets).

Yes, you are very very good at timing levels. You should find some very clever places for warps smile

Tuxmym wrote:
themacmeister wrote:

It may also be wise to lock out the challenge mode, until RLK's easy and hard levels have both been completed. This would stop beginner players from getting frustrated, and act as a reward too. What do you think?

I agree, good idea. Maybe we could lock my sets in the same manner: I've seen several players starting playing Neverball with my sets and then giving up in playing Neverball because they were frustrated by my levels...
When you start playing Neverball, you don't realise you can progress a lot in the ball's control and thus you can quickly conclude some levels are too hard and you'll never manage to finish them. Locking the access to my levels until easy and hards levels are finished could prevent this reasoning.

I agree. Maybe easy unlocks hard, hard unlocks mym1, mym1 unlocks mym2 and challenge mode, mym2 unlocks ???

Also, same unlock system on neverputt. equal or under par for 18 holes = unlock two new courses (for neverputt todo) Breaking par is fairly easy on RLK's course, but not next two smile

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

61

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

themacmeister wrote:

OK, no game over, but maybe continue/main menu buttons?!

Of course.

themacmeister wrote:

Yes, you are very very good at timing levels. You should find some very clever places for warps smile

It is for your well being smile

themacmeister wrote:

Maybe easy unlocks hard, hard unlocks mym1, mym1 unlocks mym2 and challenge mode, mym2 unlocks ???

I prefer seeing easy and hard sets as tutorials that unlock the access to challenge modes and all the contributions.
Or maybe this could be just the easy set which could unlock all these things.

themacmeister wrote:

Also, same unlock system on neverputt. equal or under par for 18 holes = unlock two new courses (for neverputt todo) Breaking par is fairly easy on RLK's course, but not next two smile

I agree.

62

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Bug Report: Levels with time more than 10 minutes, (60000 in the levels-set.txt file) the timer doesn't go down. Please add it to your TODO list to fixed smile

63

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

canuck wrote:

Bug Report: Levels with time more than 10 minutes, (60000 in the levels-set.txt file) the timer doesn't go down. Please add it to your TODO list to fixed smile

If I remember well, it is normal. It is the way to set an unlimited time. Do you really need more time than 10 min ?

64 (edited by BuD 2005-05-11 04:16:58)

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

canuck wrote:

Bug Report: Levels with time more than 10 minutes, (60000 in the levels-set.txt file) the timer doesn't go down. Please add it to your TODO list to fixed smile:)

Mmmm, then when the bug will be fixed, how will do I to make a level with unlimited time?
Feature suggestion: if you want unlimited time, set 0 in the "level-set.txt" (Worldspawn entity)

65

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

BuD wrote:

Mmmm, then when the bug will be fixed, how will do I to make a level with unlimited time?
Feature suggestion: if you want unlimited time, set 0 in the "level-set.txt" (Worldspawn entity)

I've just said the current system is to set a time higher than 9'59'' if you want an unlimited time. Why do you want changing it ? Do you really need times higher than 10' ?

66

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

In My level 4 (not published), the labyrinth of switches, all the time is not enough.  It isn't a level for skillful people, It is for intelligent people.

67

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

I thought 10 mins was good for everybody to finish, but I reduced it to 5'00.

I don't know what 0 time means, but nevertheless that should be the unlimited time flag, in my oppinion, unless it's used otherwise, as BuD said...

68 (edited by themacmeister 2005-05-12 01:30:58)

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Neverball is all about speed, accuracy and control. There is a very small 'intellectual' part in it, mainly by figuring out how to finish a level. Mainly, it is not, and 10 minutes is a very long time... I agree with up to ten minutes, and then unlimited time after that...

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

69

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Feature suggestions:

Identical icons for Win32 and OSX(?) & Linux versions (same as .png icons supplied with source).  - priority:low

Static precompiled binaries for *nux - for absolute newbies.  - priority:medium

Installer for precompiled linux/win32/osx etc versions of neverball/neverputt (Loki Installer for Linux, nullsoft scriptable install system for win32?, osxgnu for OS X? - http://www.osxgnu.org/).  - priority:low

Addition of compiled curve.exe for precompiled Win32 versions. I have one compiled with dev-cpp if needed (Win95-WinXP) - priority:medium

Addition of curve.c to the source distribution - priority:low

Documentation as .html for cross-platform compatibility - priority:high

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

70

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Just played the latest version of 'N' (Ninja) http://www.harveycartel.org/metanet/n.html and it has a very very good implementation of online highscores. Of course, it is coded in Flash, but you may be able to gain something by looking at it.

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

71

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

themacmeister wrote:

Feature suggestions:

Identical icons for Win32 and OSX(?) & Linux versions (same as .png icons supplied with source).  - priority:low

Static precompiled binaries for *nux - for absolute newbies.  - priority:medium

Installer for precompiled linux/win32/osx etc versions of neverball/neverputt (Loki Installer for Linux, nullsoft scriptable install system for win32?, osxgnu for OS X? - http://www.osxgnu.org/).  - priority:low

Addition of compiled curve.exe for precompiled Win32 versions. I have one compiled with dev-cpp if needed (Win95-WinXP) - priority:medium

Addition of curve.c to the source distribution - priority:low

Documentation as .html for cross-platform compatibility - priority:high

I agree. I've already spoken to rlk about icons and installers but I've understood he didn't had the time to do this.
I think we need a volonteer.

72

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

themacmeister wrote:

Just played the latest version of 'N' (Ninja) http://www.harveycartel.org/metanet/n.html and it has a very very good implementation of online highscores. Of course, it is coded in Flash, but you may be able to gain something by looking at it.

You could note some good ideas in this site and propose them in the Nevertable Suggestions forum section.

73

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Tuxmym wrote:

You could note some good ideas in this site and propose them in the Nevertable Suggestions forum section.

hmmm, might just do that! Also needs RLK approval for implementation too smile

ps. the high scores are inside the game, linked to a member database on the web. you would understand better if you downloaded and tried the game. There is a slight pause as each high score page is downloaded, but the display is split into sections, so it doesn't take too long.

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

74

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Sorry but I would like to say something about challenge / training modes... I try to read everything you post (very interesting discussion ^^).

Here what I think about this :
- Only 2 modes training and Challenge, Challenge = finish all levels always starting from level 1.
- It will be good if only easy and hard sets would be available first as you said earlier.
- You've got 2 lives to finish a set in challenge mode. But if you reach level 15 for example, first 15 levels are unlocked in training mode ! So a player can train on first 15 levels to reach further level next time in challenge mode, I think that's OK, isn't it ?
- Maybe we need another set, a sort of "medium" one for newbie players... I'm not sure about that, hard levels can be considered as "medium" for me between easy and Mehdi1.
- We could allow wraps, but small warps not more than 1 or 2 levels at a time maybe... Warps which are difficult to reach so it's risky to try them if you try to beat a "best set time". And 1 wrap to a "bonus level" per set for "most coins" would be great too, don't you think ?

I hope I don't repeat too much... I think that would be a good config.

75

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Tuxmym wrote:

added this bug: "z value detection for fallout is done with the lowest lump but should be with the min of the lowest lump AND the lowest path_corner"
Proposed by Canuck and already encountered by me.

According to rlk, this is not a bug, but a feature, it was made on purpose to allow the map creator this control.  smile