26

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

themacmeister wrote:

Feature Suggestion: double-clickable replay files - Launches neverball directly to the replay.

That was already added in the TODO (Bud's suggestion, last medium priority feature) wink

27

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

my bad... didn't read the updated one...

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

28

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

How about a (randomized) slideshow mode in the replay menu like in the title screen? But here without the H25 level scrolling between to replays.

29

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Bug Fix suggestion: Corrupted textures (GUI) changing resolutions/window mode (Win32).

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

30

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Another feature can be configurable keys.
I have a joystick to play neverball, and I want change some button's binds.

31

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

New Feature Suggestion:

New grounds with friction like sand. When the ball is rolling in this grounds, it decelerate.

32

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Sebastian wrote:

How about a (randomized) slideshow mode in the replay menu like in the title screen? But here without the H25 level scrolling between to replays.

Why not. I add it.

33

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

BuD wrote:

Another feature can be configurable keys.
I have a joystick to play neverball, and I want change some button's binds.

You can change it in the neverballrc file. Maybe you mean in game ?

34

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

BuD wrote:

New grounds with friction like sand. When the ball is rolling in this grounds, it decelerate.

To make this realistic, the ball should be insterted a little bit in the ground making a plough, but with the current engine, it is not possible.
Rlk should better answer to this.

35

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Tuxmym wrote:

Why not. I add it.

Why not?  Because it doesn't add any functionality to the game that isn't already there, it's more code for me to write (and maintain in the future), and it's more crap to clutter up the user interface.

Please people, this is not a free-for-all.  Consider yourself a game designer for a moment.  Consider the REAL VALUE of a suggestion.  DISCUSS these things.  Games are not "done" when they consist of the largest possible aglomeration of features, they are done when they represent a closed circle, a coherent whole.  I will not add features for feature's sake.  That's not how professionals develop software.

The random replay feature exists for exactly one reason: "attract mode".  Attract mode is something video games have done since the beginning.  Attract mode is there to give you a taste of the gameplay and entice you to play.  Of course, it involves showing the title of the game.  It has a purpose.

36

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

rlk wrote:

Please people, this is not a free-for-all.  Consider yourself a game designer for a moment.  Consider the REAL VALUE of a suggestion.  DISCUSS these things.  Games are not "done" when they consist of the largest possible aglomeration of features, they are done when they represent a closed circle, a coherent whole.  I will not add features for feature's sake.  That's not how professionals develop software.

We thought it could be nice, but I admit this is not really useful, then I'll remove it. We'll try to discuss more new suggestions from now.

37

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

rlk wrote:

DISCUSS these things.

Could you discuss with us about some proposed suggestions like:
- accurate definition of training mode / challenge mode
- running a level from the command line with "$ neverball level.sol"
- unlocking levels by group of 5
- a radiant plugin for Neverball

38

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

rlk wrote:

The random replay feature exists for exactly one reason: "attract mode".  Attract mode is something video games have done since the beginning.  Attract mode is there to give you a taste of the gameplay and entice you to play.  Of course, it involves showing the title of the game.  It has a purpose.

Yeah, I understand it. That's why I considered long, whether I should ask for it or not.

39

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Sorry if I sounded like I was flaming there, I just wanted to knock some sense into the group.  In general, don't think about what YOU want in the game, think about what EVERY possible player might want.

Tuxmym wrote:

Could you discuss with us about some proposed suggestions like:
- accurate definition of training mode / challenge mode

You mean like Super Monkey Ball?  I am all for totally modifying the progression system to be exactly like SMB.  It allows you to practice any levels you've opened, b ut if you want to open new levels then you have to start at Level 1 of the set of 25.  I like this.

The only reason Neverball is not run this way is historical.  Neverball first went public with 5 levels, and the focus was more on development than on player experience.  Now that we've got many levels and a good user base, the SMB system is appropriate.

This is a major change, which is likely to anger a lot of people in the same way that the SMB-style camera angered people.  But, I'm still willing to do it because it makes for a better game.

(Some early set levels may need to be modified to include in-set forward warps, as SMB depends upon this to reward expert play and unnecessary replay of finished levels in challenge mode.)

Tuxmym wrote:

- running a level from the command line with "$ neverball level.sol"

High priority.

Tuxmym wrote:

- unlocking levels by group of 5

This would be in conflict with SMB-style advancement.

Tuxmym wrote:

- a radiant plugin for Neverball

This is not my problem.  GtkRadiant already has a powerful system for managing multiple games.  If someone worked out a Neverball configuration and created a high quality patch against the GtkRadiant distribution, I'd imagine the developers would be open to including it.  I'm not a GtkRadiant developer and I'm comfortable with the current mapping system.

BuD wrote:

New grounds with friction like sand. When the ball is rolling in this grounds, it decelerate.

This is a lot more difficult than it sounds, and I'm not certain it would improve the user experience at all.  The Neverball world is completely frictionless.

themacmeister wrote:

I mean in a newer version. ie: rlk would allow replays elsewhere than the currently searched paths.

This will follow from the new replay directory system.

40 (edited by themacmeister 2005-05-07 00:19:27)

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Not exactly 'devel' related, but how about a training *set* of levels, that teach users different necessary ball control for different situations. eg. lifts and moving platforms, ramps & pipes, mazes & confined spaces, manual camera control required, pusher style level etc.

Mehdi's levels in particular are so wonderfully different and inspired (I wonder what he was smoking to come up with some of his levels) that you cannot progress through without many many attempts. Assuming you need to 'unlock' this level for training is unfair in my opinion. Maybe up to and *including* the level you are currently *stuck at* would be best. I leave it in your capable hands RLK!

themacmeister

PS. My Win32 versions of gtkradiant have never and will never function correctly. I will save my editing for FC3 Linux, and see if that improves the situation.

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

41

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

- accurate definition of training mode / challenge mode

I believe that training level should be untimed with no hud at all. That way people could easier see the level, and not be distracted. Obviously the challenge mode would have these reinstated smile

I believe challenge mode should be very similar to neverball as of 1.4.0, except maybe smaller text to allow extra onscreen text of a total or goal for the entire challenge? (time to beat?/coins to beat?). This could be in the form of a countdown or countup, or just a static reminder. It could allow people on a challenge to quickly see if it is still possible to beat a current record.

I believe the current hud during play is way too large (for what it is). I play at 1024x768 and I could easily read the text from the next room. Maybe with more info to display, it could be reduced somewhat. I like the position of the hud at present too - better than the top of the screen

- running a level from the command line with "$ neverball level.sol"

I like the idea of launching replays from the command line/clicking, but I cannot see the merit of launching a level from anywhere. Also, there are some .sol backgrounds, so some confusion may arise. This also goes against the proposition of compressed distribution of level sets. Maybe separate program (or preferrably built-in code) to allow the automatic ungzipping and installing of level sets from the command line or drag'n'drop.
eg. $ neverball mynewlevels.gz (and neverball takes care of the rest and launches?)

- unlocking levels by group of 5

This idea is dead - training on levels up to and including the level you were last at, and challenge from level 1 with difficult warps to higher levels ala. SMB.

- a radiant plugin for Neverball

MYM discovered radiant has a fairly limited licence agreement, so this idea is probably out. Maybe some good howtos, some tutorials/movies and a good collection of reusable prefab being posted/available on the forum would be great in my opinion.

themacmeister

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

42

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Feature Suggestion:

High Scores screen - scrolling list - in concert with below suggestions:

Online high scores (linked to nevertable RSS?): low priority

High Scores screen - local - for communal/family computers - quickly see if anyone has beaten your times/coins/levels for a given set/level: medium priority

Also, separate user/prefs files for multiple users? Allows for different features/cameras/controllers for different users. Log in after main screen ala WinXP  (users names as buttons): priority ?

themacmeister

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

43

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

rlk wrote:
Tuxmym wrote:

- accurate definition of training mode / challenge mode

You mean like Super Monkey Ball?  I am all for totally modifying the progression system to be exactly like SMB.  It allows you to practice any levels you've opened, but if you want to open new levels then you have to start at Level 1 of the set of 25.  I like this.

Starting from level 1 to unlock some high levels will be too difficult and too frustrating for high difficulty sets.
We was speaking about a system making easier the levels unlock and you propose the opposite.

rlk wrote:

The only reason Neverball is not run this way is historical.  Neverball first went public with 5 levels, and the focus was more on development than on player experience.  Now that we've got many levels and a good user base, the SMB system is appropriate.

SMB isn't inevitably the best concept of this game type for which we must tend to.
We could try to concieve a new and more suitable to Neverball system.

rlk wrote:

This is a major change, which is likely to anger a lot of people in the same way that the SMB-style camera angered people.  But, I'm still willing to do it because it makes for a better game.

I'm not sure of this. A discussion is needed here.

rlk wrote:
Tuxmym wrote:

- unlocking levels by group of 5

This would be in conflict with SMB-style advancement.

This doesn't bother me.

44

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

themacmeister wrote:

- accurate definition of training mode / challenge mode

I believe that training level should be untimed with no hud at all. That way people could easier see the level, and not be distracted. Obviously the challenge mode would have these reinstated smile

But I was initially speaking about a training mode to ease records beating by allowing more attempts without gameover.
For this purpose, we need at least the time and the coins counter.

themacmeister wrote:

I believe challenge mode should be very similar to neverball as of 1.4.0, except maybe smaller text to allow extra onscreen text of a total or goal for the entire challenge? (time to beat?/coins to beat?).

There is already the total score displayed when finishing a level. However there is a lack for the total played time.

themacmeister wrote:

This could be in the form of a countdown or countup, or just a static reminder. It could allow people on a challenge to quickly see if it is still possible to beat a current record.

I agree, good idea.

themacmeister wrote:

I believe the current hud during play is way too large (for what it is). I play at 1024x768 and I could easily read the text from the next room. Maybe with more info to display, it could be reduced somewhat. I like the position of the hud at present too - better than the top of the screen

The size is suitable for me, but I don't care.

themacmeister wrote:

I like the idea of launching replays from the command line/clicking

Yes, me too, I've forgotten this possibility.

themacmeister wrote:

but I cannot see the merit of launching a level from anywhere.

If you create a level and want to try it quickly, you'll don't have to create many directories, files and to edit the sets.txt: you'll just have to use mapc and run your level. For beginner contributors it's a good point.

themacmeister wrote:

Also, there are some .sol backgrounds, so some confusion may arise.

As these are two different kind of files, they could have different extensions.

themacmeister wrote:

This also goes against the proposition of compressed distribution of level sets.

I think there must be the possibility to either run a level or a distribution.

themacmeister wrote:

Maybe separate program (or preferrably built-in code) to allow the automatic ungzipping and installing of level sets from the command line or drag'n'drop.
eg. $ neverball mynewlevels.gz (and neverball takes care of the rest and launches?)

It seems to be useful. It's up to rlk to answer to this.

themacmeister wrote:

- unlocking levels by group of 5

This idea is dead - training on levels up to and including the level you were last at, and challenge from level 1 with difficult warps to higher levels ala. SMB.

Ok, you think players will manage to reach some of my last levels without abandoning ? I'm not sure.
This game is known to be particulary difficult and sometimes frustrating and you and rlk want to add more difficulty and more stress ?

45

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Tuxmym wrote:

If you create a level and want to try it quickly, you'll don't have to create many directories, files and to edit the sets.txt: you'll just have to use mapc and run your level. For beginner contributors it's a good point.

Good point, I was not thinking of level creation when I wrote that. Very good point!

Tuxmym wrote:

Ok, you think players will manage to reach some of my last levels without abandoning ? I'm not sure.
This game is known to be particulary difficult and sometimes frustrating and you and rlk want to add more difficulty and more stress ?

I can finish both easy and hard levels from RLK in about 10-20 minutes on a single game each, very easily. Your levels are a lot more difficult, and require a lot more trial and error, and practise. I think for a challenge, you need to start at level 1 and play through. RLK will develop a warp texture/entity to later levels. It is a way of rewarding risky manouvers well executed, and also a way for expert players to finish the challenge faster.

Obviously, training mode can be any level you have already *been to*, which includes the level you are currently trying to complete. This will allow you to develop strategies and methods of playing the level, and then try through challenge. What do you think RLK? anyone?

themacmeister

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

46

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Tuxmym wrote:

This game is known to be particulary difficult and sometimes frustrating and you and rlk want to add more difficulty and more stress ?

That is incredibly funny.  You are responsible for the most difficult and stressful levels in neverball yourself.

I remember, I had only one game on my GameCube, and that was SMB, and I sold the GameCube out of frustration because I could not progress through certain difficult levels. With the introduction of downloadable neverball replays, you can get an idea of how at least to finish a level, and with practise you should do it.

I am no expert neverball player, and I have managed to get to level 23 of your 1st set, and up to 19 on your 2nd set. Which considering I am an amateur using the mouse for control, is not a bad effort. I do not play neverball daily either, only about 3 times a week (but sometimes for 2 hours at a time). Obviously we cannot make these people play challenging games. They must like a challenge to play it, which leaves neverball as a great game for those who like a reflex based challenge!

themacmeister

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

47 (edited by themacmeister 2005-05-08 06:15:32)

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Feature Suggestion:

1 or 2 more-realistic backdrops (like 'city' or 'space'): priority low

I think the green hills on the horizon can be improved.
I would actually like photorealistic backdrops of cliffs etc. as in SMB, but I realise that this may be impossible with the current engine.

themacmeister

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

48

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

I think we could also discuss the following:

Warp entities, and their eventual inclusion in neverball challenge mode

Subjects to discuss can include possible appearance, placement, levels skipped,  and available levels that are good candidates.

How many levels should be skipped. Half of SMB? 3 and 5 level warps? any set amount?

Please comment...

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

49

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

Feature Suggestion.

More spectacular/interesting reaction on reaching of goal.

eg. sound - homer simpson - "WooHoo!!" smile

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

50

Re: the Neverball's TODO proposition

themacmeister wrote:

That is incredibly funny.  You are responsible for the most difficult and stressful levels in neverball yourself.

He he, you're right big_smile. But I've made these levels having the actual unlock system in mind.

themacmeister wrote:

I remember, I had only one game on my GameCube, and that was SMB, and I sold the GameCube out of frustration because I could not progress through certain difficult levels. With the introduction of downloadable neverball replays, you can get an idea of how at least to finish a level, and with practise you should do it.

I am no expert neverball player, and I have managed to get to level 23 of your 1st set, and up to 19 on your 2nd set. Which considering I am an amateur using the mouse for control, is not a bad effort. I do not play neverball daily either, only about 3 times a week (but sometimes for 2 hours at a time).

How much time you would have needed to reach such levels if you was forced to start from the first one after each gameover ? (considering you haven't given up with this harder system)

themacmeister wrote:

Obviously we cannot make these people play challenging games. They must like a challenge to play it, which leaves neverball as a great game for those who like a reflex based challenge!

But if this progression system is added, this will be the unique way of progressing in the sets.
Think about a new player reaching, with some luck, my level 12, grabbing enough coins to unlock the goal and reaching it with many luck, then dying in M13, forced to start again from level 1: the next thing he will do is "rm -rf neverball" smile