26

Re: New coin textures?

Cheeseness wrote:
Elviz wrote:

Well, then take the fact that I just reverted the commit as my part in the discussion.

Gotta admit, it was very tempting.

There was no actual temptation to revert the commit, nor did I even consider it. But if committing a change is now a valid way to express an opinion, then surely reverting it could be seen as an equally valid way to express the opposite opinion.

I think it's most beneficial to a community-oriented project like this one if contributors make commits only when they have a reasonable expectation that other contributors who may have an interest in the topic at hand are likely to be on board with the changes, and that there'll be little or no discussion unless unforeseen issues pop up.

(One could now go into a whole lot of specifics about how to handle this sensibly. For example, few people would demand that the project's founder ask for approval before making changes. Developers who play bigger roles wield more influence. And generally, the more a contributor is associated with the part of the project he's changing, the more freedom he is usually granted to decide things on his own. I also feel that mappers should have the final say on what happens in their personal level sets and needn't start a discussion first.)

27

Re: New coin textures?

parasti wrote:

I'm sure that you're well aware that out of the list of questionable pre-release changes made in the past week, this one is at the very bottom of that list.

No, I'm not aware of this. While I do question the amount of repo write activity at a time when a development freeze would be called for, I can see the reason behind the individual commits. jammnrose reported some problems on the Mac and you tried to fix them. At worst, this introduces a new bug somewhere, but it doesn't constitute a change to the game.

That coin business, on the other hand, came completely out of nowhere. No one (that I know of) had ever suggested that the coins needed to be modified, and now, literally hours before the first release in almost five years, they suddenly had to have a new texture style and a new value representation, resulting in a highly visible change? I mean, what the thwomp?

Only later was I able to piece together, thanks to GunChleoc's explanation, that it was something to do with a Korean coin requiring a different style and then that style being backported to the standard coins. This was not at all apparent when the commit was made, and even if it had been apparent, my opinion would have been that special localization needs shouldn't affect the mainstream design. In fact, I've always thought of coin localization as a bit of a gimmick. The "$" is generic enough that as a player I never felt that I'm specifically collecting US dollars. The coins are not real money anyway.

Is there something special about releasing 1.6.0 that I'm not aware of, that prevents 1.6.1, 1.6.2, 1.7.0 and so on from ever being conceived? That commit from being reverted the next day after 1.6.0 and 1.6.1 being released a week from now?

This line of argumentation is not convincing. If it's so easy and unproblematic to release 1.6.1 at any time, then clearly you could have just released 1.6.0 in the state we all expected it to be released in and postponed any further changes, especially controversial ones, until 1.6.1.

The act of me adding textures isn't a conflict or a hostile action, the act of you reverting it, is.

"Adding textures" is not an honest description of changing the long-established look of a major game element.

For everyone not following the commit log, I have reverted the offending commit.

You may have reverted the new-style images, but you didn't stop the use of the 5/10 textures even though you were aware of the feedback from Cheeseness and me. In fact, the speed with which you committed every new update from GunChleoc before other contributors had a reasonable chance to look at it, and then slapped the 1.6.0 tag on the result comes across as intentionally disrespectful to those who had voiced objections.

I stayed out of the thread you opened recently, and was at one point even on the verge of writing something in your defense, but in light of these recent actions (which frankly took me by surprise) I'm beginning to think that Cheeseness has a point.

28

Re: New coin textures?

Are you seriously saying that every other change I have ever made has not followed the same pattern? If I wanted to be intentionally disrespectful, I would have ignored your opinion and kept the new style images. The 5/10 images were kept to address a localization issue. As a workaround, if you will, while this very topic arrives at a better outcome. They were not kept as a "fuck you" to your and the rest of the community's opinion, as you seem to imply. I realize you don't give a crap about localization, with Nuncabola not having localization support. You and I clearly disagree on the importance of a couple of coin textures, and I'm not using this phrase to downplay the situation, I just flat out do not view them to be as important as you do. Unlike many of you, I have not holistically sworn myself to the preservation of the 1.4.0 look and feel of Neverball, and again, I don't mean to downplay, I'm just trying to get across that it's not a priority of any magnitude to me. In my mind this change has literally zero effect on how the game is going to be perceived. Every other change I make can break the game for someone, destroying the experience, while you're there, saying that a texture that looks different than before is a more "questionable" change. Really? This is "detrimental" to the project, according to you and Cheeseness? I clearly misjudged what the community reaction would be. If I knew it would be this, I wouldn't have gone anywhere near it out of fear of being seen as "intentionally disrespectful" and "dishonest".

29

Re: New coin textures?

ok, in spite of my better judgement, I am going to chime in here...

All I want to point out is that, in my opinion, parasti has been operating and communicating pretty much consistently for a long time. I have not been gobsmacked or super taken aback by anything that has happened in the repo recently. This doesn't mean I agree 100% with how parasti does things, and it doesn't mean I don't think there's room for improvement for all of us.

Yes, I was surprised to see the coin change get committed right before the release, and I think Cheese and Elviz have raised valid issues.

All I'm saying is, lets not lose sight of the fact that (critiques aside) parasti has been doing the heavy lifting around here for years and it pains me to see this discord coming to a head at this moment. Love it or hate it, the nature of communities (again, IMO) is that we won't all agree on the 'right way' or best way to conduct our business together.

If I am not in a position to implement something myself I usually don't take issue with how someone else goes about doing it, even though I may choose to offer my opinions or input or whatever.

1.6 is here, hooray! I don't want to lose the forest for the trees.
That's all I have to say, thanks for reading. tongue

30

Re: New coin textures?

Maybe we could only localize the currency symbol in the middle (and maybe use a bump map for that) and have the rest done by geometry?

Re them being darker, I did that because they were hard to read, but I'm sure there's room for improvement there and that they can be lightened up again. I'll wait for a decision though before I do any more fiddling with this.

31 (edited by dtb 2014-05-23 10:23:01)

Re: New coin textures?

tonesfrommars wrote:

...1.6 is here, hooray! I don't want to lose the forest for the trees.
That's all I have to say, thanks for reading. tongue

Yeah, let's celebrate this with a replay (enclosed)

I've managed to make my way through the new version's EASY, MEDIUM, HARD + TDF in challenge mode by now and I've spotted no issues so far.

I'm not sure anybody read this: http://forum.nevercorner.net/viewtopic. … 712#p30712
...or whereto address it but surely a new thread (on how the Nevertable's being affected by 1.6.0)would make sense, anybody can move it?

As for this ongoing rumble...

Elviz wrote:

...I stayed out of the thread you opened recently, and was at one point even on the verge of writing something in your defense, but in light of these recent actions (which frankly took me by surprise) I'm beginning to think that Cheeseness has a point.

...I think that's the main problem here: it's all too much about who's acting right or wrong, about taking sides, scoring points, black and white, who's who, and so on. We all make mistakes in here sometimes but we are all valuable to the community as this is a pretty small piece of land and there's not much room for a lot of fighting (otherwise every single new thread would soon go off-topic and turn into just another "on my interactions" - thread (like this one already did) and that's just pretty annoying for most readers and won't attract many new forum members as well.

SO, WHY NOT STOP IT HERE, MATES, SHAKE HANDS AND LET'S JUST LEAVE IT AT THAT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAzESJ62irI
...because "this town's definitely big enough for all of us"

Post's attachments

mym-20_02.nbr 631.18 kb, 114 downloads since 2014-05-23 

32

Re: New coin textures?

Elviz wrote:

I'm beginning to think that Cheeseness has a point.

This makes me worry if perhaps things there may have been misinterpreted. I'd like to highlight that parasti's words in that thread are his, not mine - his cumulative interpretations of small and large pieces of feedback over a long period rather than some rant I'd made at some point. I've only ever been pointing out individual actions (like these) or behaviours (some of which haven't been visible here on the forums) that are counterproductive or create an unpleasant contribution environment.

If there's any point that I've tried to make, it's that to keep the project sustainable and moving forward it's important to learn from such things.


parasti wrote:

Unlike many of you, I have not holistically sworn myself to the preservation of the 1.4.0 look and feel of Neverball

I don't recall anybody swearing to do such a thing (in fact there have been a number of people in this thread who have been encouraging of having this stuff explored who didn't want to see it in the repo just yet). I also don't think anybody is dead set on maintaining that look and feel (and the suggestion that Elviz is is mind boggling), but instead that people rightly recognise the value of visual consistency, and that these sorts of changes are ones that should be done thoughtfully - especially when we're talking about the second most prominent element in the game.

But ultimately, it's not even that that's raising eyebrows here, it's your approach to discourse. Whether this change is comparatively more or less important than others or not is completely irrelevant, banging on about release gaps is unnecessary, lashing out at Elviz's approach Nucabola's localisation is uncalled for, claiming to have reverted "the offending commit" whilst leaving changes that people were objecting to in without highlighting that that's what you were doing smacks of misdirection, etc. etc. etc. - not to mention the implications of your first post in this thread. For somebody who says they "strongly believe in a non-bullshit way" of communicating, there seems to be a lot of cruft here. How about we leave that sort of stuff out of the discussion?


parasti wrote:

This is "detrimental" to the project, according to you and Cheeseness?

Gotta watch how you use those quotation marks, dude. Looks like you're the only person to have used that word in over a year and a half.


dtb wrote:

I think that's the main problem here: it's all too much about who's acting right or wrong, about taking sides, scoring points, black and white, who's who, and so on.

For better or worse, if this sort of thing is likely to case contention in the future, it's worth working through so that it doesn't crop up again. I don't know that anybody has "sides" here (at least I hope that nobody's coming at it from that sort of angle). We're expressing why some actions might not sit well with others, and why they might beappropriate - I would agree though that things could probably be a bit more civilised and respectful.


GunChleoc wrote:

I'll wait for a decision though before I do any more fiddling with this.

If you're keen to make stuff, make stuff! Don't let any of this talk stop you from experimenting, iterating, refining and sharing your ideas if that's what you want to do smile

Cheese
==========
cheesetalks.net

33 (edited by GunChleoc 2014-05-23 11:56:40)

Re: New coin textures?

Cheeseness wrote:
GunChleoc wrote:

I'll wait for a decision though before I do any more fiddling with this.

If you're keen to make stuff, make stuff! Don't let any of this talk stop you from experimenting, iterating, refining and sharing your ideas if that's what you want to do smile

Don't worry, this discussion hasn't stopped me from doing anything. I just feel that I have taken the textures as far as I can at the moment, and I don't want to spend a lot of time right now fiddling with adjusting it perfectly unless it will end up in the game. I have learned a lot from doing these, so my time hasn't been wasted in any case, but fine-tuning them now will take more time than I have - unless there is a good chance that they are going to be used.

So, you guys work out what you have to work out and make a decision, and then I will be happy to provide what I can smile

Regarding wheher the coins should be localized at all, while everybody recognized the $ sign, it is also perceived as American, so IMO the localized versions are more fun, because they feel more like a part of the local language & culture smile

34

Re: New coin textures?

dtb wrote:

I think that's the main problem here: it's all too much about who's acting right or wrong, about taking sides, scoring points, black and white, who's who, and so on. We all make mistakes in here sometimes but we are all valuable to the community as this is a pretty small piece of land and there's not much room for a lot of fighting.

http://levraigabroy.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/give-that-man-a-medal.jpg

~DEV

35

Re: New coin textures?

Cheeseness wrote:
Elviz wrote:

I'm beginning to think that Cheeseness has a point.

This makes me worry if perhaps things there may have been misinterpreted.

big_smile (Taken out of context, of course.)

36

Re: New coin textures?

Cheeseness wrote:

...For better or worse, if this sort of thing is likely to case contention in the future, it's worth working through so that it doesn't crop up again. I don't know that anybody has "sides" here (at least I hope that nobody's coming at it from that sort of angle)...

At least there will be sides, I guess, if the tone continues to get more intense (now we've already had fuXX and bullsXXX and that's not just "expressing why some actions might not sit well with others...")

I think there's some stuff that simply cannot be sorted out even if all of the people involved honestly try to do so sad

37 (edited by dtb 2014-05-23 13:43:18)

Re: New coin textures?

GunChleoc wrote:

...while everybody recognized the $ sign, it is also perceived as American, so IMO the localized versions are more fun, because they feel more like a part of the local language & culture smile

...to me the $ sign has rather been just a (worldwide accepted) symbol for money for the past decades - fully dissociated from the US

38

Re: New coin textures?

nue wrote:

big_smile (Taken out of context, of course.)

I try not to be too pointy big_smile


dtb wrote:

I think there's some stuff that simply cannot be sorted out even if all of the people involved honestly try to do so sad

Maybe, maybe not. One would hope that something as integral to the project as merging in contributions is something that can be worked out though. If not, that's not a good sign.


GunChleoc wrote:

it is also perceived as American

It's funny, but it wasn't until Elviz mentioned it that it occurred to me that people might see it that way. Our currency here is called a dollar, and it's one among many. According to Wikipedia, that symbol is also used for pesos (but I've never been anywhere that uses pesos, so I wouldn't have known).

Localising the symbol to a language correctly is a little tricky. For example, in the UK, English is spoken, but pounds are used, and there are a couple of countries out there which have multiple currencies in circulation. Whilst I'm glad that there are alternative versions that people can use if they like, I'm not strongly opinionated either way (I'm not event specifically tied to the coin motif), but it's always struck me as being more convoluted than it first appears.

Cheese
==========
cheesetalks.net

39 (edited by GunChleoc 2014-05-23 13:54:45)

Re: New coin textures?

Yes, it certainly isn't 1:1. For one thing, there's a difference between a language and a locale. A locale is a language (variant) plus all sorts of other conventions, like e.g. currency, and units of measurement, how to display a calendar or even organise the calendar, etc. I am currently working on this, and the dataset it quite big!

So, for example, if we had somebody coming in to translate from US English into British English, that person might want to use the £ symbol rather than the $ symbol. Also, perceptions of a symbol might not be the same all over the world, as we just have seen - the $ isn't only used for US$, so perceptions aren't necessarily correct, but they are still there.

The best thing IMO will be to let each localizer decide which symbol they want, as they will know best what's appropriate for their country - as ht-never's correction of my choice for Korean has already proved!

40

Re: New coin textures?

parasti wrote:

You and I clearly disagree on the importance of a couple of coin textures, and I'm not using this phrase to downplay the situation, I just flat out do not view them to be as important as you do.

I'm not nearly as concerned about the concrete look as I am about the timing of the change and, after my pointing this out, your reaction which in my perception went from unhelpful to antagonistic. No harm would have been done had the suggestion simply been to evaluate proposals for changes after 1.6.0 is out the door. While you're right insofar as my default position is not to modify established things unless the alternative is arguably better, there's certainly room for improvements. I could even imagine a medallion-like look that doesn't feature any currency symbols at all, though we would have to be careful to avoid the performance hit that a more complex geometry might cause in coin-heavy levels.

If I wanted to be intentionally disrespectful, I would have ignored your opinion and kept the new style images. The 5/10 images were kept to address a localization issue.

It's not just the 5/10 textures. I had also indicated that I preferred any changes to the standard coin texture to wait until 1.6.1. Now the images in the help screen that I spent some time updating in order for them to match the new lighting and goal effects are once again out of step with the in-game look due to the changed coins. Moreover, I had already offered a draft of my own for a higher-res version of the dollar coin once the time comes to consider changes. While you have every right to think of GunChleoc's later effort as superior, it would have been common courtesy not to disregard the former entirely.

41

Re: New coin textures?

If you felt my reaction was antagonistic, you may not be far off, but it had more to do with the bigger picture than the situation at hand. The bigger picture is the disagreement or whatever that's been going on for a few weeks and release work that just didn't want to end (I don't mean to offend anyone who was working on last-minute changes of their own, I don't have a problem with that). Combined it's been the most stressful experience I've ever had working on this game, and it's put a few important things into question. At that point, I was addressing a bug, I wasn't evaluating proposals for changes. Not my better judgment, by any means. I don't have a problem backing out a rushed decision (or several) that isn't received well. Doing so would require that the localization problem be solved a different way. I promise I won't interfere with those who are "tempted" to undo whatever mess I have created. Personally, I am not going to go anywhere near it, so it's up to you all now.

42

Re: New coin textures?

If we think the coin textures aren't right in the release, we can always change them for 1.6.1.

Here are all of my level contributions. Please test and give constructive criticism.

43

Re: New coin textures?

Cheeseness wrote:

If there's any point that I've tried to make, it's that to keep the project sustainable and moving forward it's important to learn from such things.

I didn't actually know what your exact point was, other than that you must have been dissatisfied or frustrated with certain things, as was I in this case. If I were to write my earlier post again, I'd leave that last paragraph out this time.

tonesfrommars wrote:

All I'm saying is, lets not lose sight of the fact that (critiques aside) parasti has been doing the heavy lifting around here for years [...]

Hey tones, let me assure you that even if it may have seemed otherwise to some, I never did lose sight of that.

44

Re: New coin textures?

parasti wrote:

Doing so would require that the localization problem be solved a different way.

Well, there was the option of just duplicating the original texture as a zero impact placeholder pending the outcomes of the discussion you said you were waiting for.

Elviz wrote:

I didn't actually know what your exact point was, other than that you must have been dissatisfied or frustrated with certain things, as was I in this case. If I were to write my earlier post again, I'd leave that last paragraph out this time.

I don't think I was actually trying to make any points in that particular thread, just offer some clarity since almost everything it was referring to happened off the forums, and it seemed that a few bits and pieces were being misrepresented.

ed49 wrote:

If we think the coin textures aren't right in the release, we can always change them for 1.6.1.

Totally. I think everybody recognises this. It's disappointing to be in that position, and to me it's super depressing that GunChleoc got caught in the middle but ultimately, if/when it's dealt with, that's what will happen.

Cheese
==========
cheesetalks.net

45

Re: New coin textures?

I think part of the problem here is that both parasti & me were feeling pressed for time - I wanted to get a localization problem fixed before the release, and then I also started fiddling while I was at it and changing things, then we were already past the day that the release was meant to be tagged. Had we waited with the release just one more day, we would now have localized coins in the old style and without numbers for all languages, because by that time the community feedback had arrived. But we didn't, and the way parasti describes how he was feeling about the whole thing at the time makes it understandable that he just wanted the release over with, tagged and done. So, I guess that was an emotional decision at the time.

What we need now maybe is that we all try to be a bit less emotional and think about how we solve the concrete problem - e.g. we could to a mini-release that just fixes the coins with the current style and the correct localizations, without numbers on them.

46 (edited by GunChleoc 2014-05-23 22:27:28)

Re: New coin textures?

Cheeseness wrote:
parasti wrote:

Doing so would require that the localization problem be solved a different way.

Well, there was the option of just duplicating the original texture as a zero impact placeholder pending the outcomes of the discussion you said you were waiting for.

It did make a difference of there were numbers or symbols on the 5 and 10 coins for the localizations. I actually went though the language files a couple of times to change things around as the series of commits progressed. I was the one who added the numbers, parasti originally just duplicated the $ symbol. So, the original change wasn't his, although he then did go with it.


Cheeseness wrote:
ed49 wrote:

If we think the coin textures aren't right in the release, we can always change them for 1.6.1.

Totally. I think everybody recognises this. It's disappointing to be in that position, and to me it's super depressing that GunChleoc got caught in the middle but ultimately, if/when it's dealt with, that's what will happen.

Actually, I'm completely cool with this - I think I'm the person who is least emotional in this debate. So, please don't be depressed on my behalf, because I'm not wink

47

Re: New coin textures?

I'll just sneak in here and add my voice. If you have a Ten worth ten, with 10 written on it, and a 5 worth 5, with 5 written on it, then the $ worth 1 with $ written on it, should surely be a number 1.

The new coins in 1.6.0 really bother me. Can someone create a quick fix for this, or can I copy textures from version 1.5.x? For some reason they do not seem thick/solid enough to be coins? They are now TOKENS smile

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

48

Re: New coin textures?

GunChleoc wrote:

Actually, I'm completely cool with this - I think I'm the person who is least emotional in this debate. So, please don't be depressed on my behalf, because I'm not wink

I'm super glad that you've been amicable about it all (still feels like it's a type of situation that's worth viewing as something to avoid though) smile

themacmeister wrote:

can I copy textures from version 1.5.x?

You can make copies of data/item/coin/coin.png from 1.6.0 if you want. The 5 and 10 coin textures are data/item/coin/coin5.png and data/item/coin/coin10.png (you should be able to pop them in your Neverball home folder like you would with a map or ball or something else).

Cheese
==========
cheesetalks.net

49

Re: New coin textures?

I think the coin thickness is fine, but I do think we should change the textures of the either the one coin to say "1" or the 5 and 10 coins to say "$".

Here are all of my level contributions. Please test and give constructive criticism.

50

Re: New coin textures?

I expected this conversation to be over a long time ago. It continues, so perhaps it has room for my perspective...

Expanding the localization of the symbol on the coin is an obvious good. If there is to be a currency symbol on the coin, then it should match the player's language.

However, putting numbers on coins of different denomination overlooks the principle of orthogonality. The denomination of a coin is already indicated by its color and any further indication is, at best, redundant.

At worst, it is a potential point of confusion. For example, what would be the denomination of a blue coin with a 5 on it? Is it a trick played by the level designer? Is it a bug in the game? Is it something you're willing to repeatedly receive email about? The best way to answer is to define the question such that it can never be asked.