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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

tonesfrommars wrote:

protonspring: I would like for you to substantiate this statement, can you provide us with examples of such other replays?

Also, re: your belief that Elviz is producing replays at slower speed, I'm sure that he is willing to be transparent, as obviously we would take cheating on the table seriously no matter who is doing it.

In spite of calling your early replays "broken" or "bugs" you've got to own up to the admission that you were (and for all I know may still be) cheating. That is the core issue here.

If your allegations about others cheating are true, I would be interested in seeing some proof of it. It sounds like you have done some analysis of replays, maybe you could share your data with us instead of just throwing accusations out there.

If I get some time, I'll poke around and put together a list of suspicious replays, but it's pretty time intensive, and I don't have much time. Also, I'm concerned about posted my replay analyzer because then it would reveal an easy way to code around it.

Why are you so sure Elviz would be transparent about this?  I'm sure he gets quite a bit of satisfaction about "owning" this table.

Of course. . I was cheating, but I stopped, because I don't have the time and it wasn't really that fun.  Lately, it's been really to see how many of Elviz's records I can beat without cheating.  It's actually been pretty difficult, but I've got some pretty good times.


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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

Elviz is a Neverball GOD! He codes, contributes, and has been playing Neverball longer than anyone on this site (except RLK). He has the skill and control to do everything shown in his replays, and he has the respect and admiration of everyone else on this site (and on the Nevertable site).

An exposed script-kiddy cheater who defames one of the most upstanding and respected members of these sites, in my opinion, should be banned from both sites.

I pity poor protonspring - as his kungfu style is just wallhacks and aimbots...

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

protonspring wrote:

Back when I was messing with code to keep up with Elviz. [...]

Of course. . I was cheating, but I stopped, because I don't have the time and it wasn't really that fun.

You have knowingly made replays using manipulated code and uploaded them onto the Nevertable where they have unfairly interfered with the contest. Just a couple of days ago you reposted your fake 1''94 rodeo replay (in reality a 1''98) as a fast-unlock record.

Only now, when forced to face the facts, do you admit to cheating and you only do so in an almost casual way amidst an unfocused flood of renewed allegations. There seems to be no trace of remorse. Instead you're making it sound as if you're providing some kind of service by pointing out which records "can be removed from the table" because they're "broken".

In the end it's up to mym and shino to decide, but in my view there's no place on the Nevertable for players like you.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

Elviz wrote:

Just a couple of days ago you reposted your fake 1''94 rodeo replay (in reality a 1''98) as a fast-unlock record.

That replay was posted 116 days ago and is one of the invalid ones.  If I reposted it amidst all of this it would be the most idiotic thing.

Elviz wrote:

In the end it's up to mym and shino to decide, but in my view there's no place on the Nevertable for players like you.

Come on. . . answer the question you hypocrite.  All of your posted replays were accomplished on a full speed, and unadulterated version of the neverball codebase?  Yes or no will suffice.

I think neverball is awesome and super fun, and I love the idea of this table, but what I don't like (and am replicating to prove a point) is for someone to take over the whole board using artificially generate godlike replays for the admiration of neverball mortals just because they can.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

themacmeister wrote:

Elviz is a Neverball GOD! He codes, contributes, and has been playing Neverball longer than anyone on this site (except RLK). He has the skill and control to do everything shown in his replays, and he has the respect and admiration of everyone else on this site (and on the Nevertable site).

An exposed script-kiddy cheater who defames one of the most upstanding and respected members of these sites, in my opinion, should be banned from both sites.

I pity poor protonspring - as his kungfu style is just wallhacks and aimbots...

Don't get me wrong.  Props to Elviz for all he has done, and I'm sure he's a nice guy, but . . I'm certain you have not analyzed his replays like I have.  I'm sure he can do everything shown in his replays as well, but I'm also quite sure he doesn't do them at full speed.

Either way. . go ahead. . revere your God if that's what suits you, but I can see the man behind the curtain.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

protonspring wrote:

There are more than just mine that have this "peculiarity."

parasti asked you as early as June to present evidence of the supposed cheating you keep going on about. You failed to do so then, and, unsurprisingly, you fail to do so now. In reality, there's only one guy here who's obsessed with "increasing the gravitational constant", "increasing the tilt angles", "slowing time down" or "dividing the GetTicks() in ball/main.c by 2". And it's not me.

Take his record on TDF12 for example.

And a bad example to boot. My times in the 1.4 contest were markedly faster. That's because I invested many more hours playing that level in 2007 than I did this year. You may also notice that the player who won the best-time competition with a 0:22''43 time back then isn't named Elviz. In fact, I'm not even the best player in the contest, I'm just the most prolific one.

Given your utter unwillingness to properly respond to the fact that you have been exposed as a dishonest player, and your increasingly inappropriate tone, I will no longer reply to any further posts you may make.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

parasti wrote:

I can only admire the patience displayed by the people here, including Elviz.

It's coming to an end.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

Elviz wrote:

Given your utter unwillingness to properly respond to the fact that you have been exposed as a dishonest player, and your increasingly inappropriate tone, I will no longer reply to any further posts you may make.

FYI: You are not the only one, but since you're the most prolific, you are the easiest target.

For the record, I've asked you at least 3 times to verify that all of your replays were done using a full-speed and unadultered version of neverball.  Still no answer, and now. . .you're not going to reply anymore?  Seems like an answer in itself.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

Elviz wrote:

It's coming to an end.

Agreed.  My concerns are still valid, but I have been heard and will move on.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

LOL, it's been very interesting reading all this I must say. tongue

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

@protonspring:

For the sake of balance here, I will offer the perspective that this isn't just a case of everyone adoring Elviz because of his "god"-like replays.

Elviz is not some untouchable "poobah" who is beyond question. He is another member of our little community here. If you had been around during the previous contest before 1.5 rolled around, you would have seen many great replays from other players that would have blown your mind. Some of Dave's freestyle replays seemed impossible to me, but I understand that they represent hours of work.

I looked at the TDF12 replay you mentioned and I don't see anything there that is impossible or unbelievable.
Unless you can produce some actual evidence to back up your accusation, it can't be taken seriously.

Also you mentioned that when you were  creating replays at slower speeds that it got boring. I would think that it would be very boring for Elviz to sit around and produce the number of replays he has at 1/2 or 1/4 speed. What's the point of that? Obviously, he has dedicated lots of time to playing the game and has also gone to the trouble of finding the rc settings that suit his style of play to the best effect.

I have always taken the assumption that anything Elviz is doing with the game is readily available to any other player (ie. Nuncabola) If he ever uses methods, tools, that are not available to us all (in terms of the software) for purposes of the contest, I would expect him to come forward and say so, as that would obviously be unfair. I don't believe that is the case.

Unfortunately, you chose to cheat as a way of dealing with your own conclusion that Elviz was doing so. You can't blame your decision or your actions on him. We all know that's not the way to deal with frustration in the contest.

protonspring wrote:

FYI: You are not the only one, but since you're the most prolific, you are the easiest target.

So you are saying that there are multiple players on the contest who are cheating by manipulating the software as you have done in the past? And from what I understand this is based entirely upon your analysis of people's reaction times and deeming them impossible?

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

tonesfrommars wrote:

@protonspring:

For the sake of balance here, I will offer the perspective that this isn't just a case of everyone adoring Elviz because of his "god"-like replays.

Elviz is not some untouchable "poobah" who is beyond question. He is another member of our little community here. If you had been around during the previous contest before 1.5 rolled around, you would have seen many great replays from other players that would have blown your mind. Some of Dave's freestyle replays seemed impossible to me, but I understand that they represent hours of work.

...

Unfortunately, you chose to cheat as a way of dealing with your own conclusion that Elviz was doing so. .... We all know that's not the way to deal with frustration in the contest.

So you are saying that there are multiple players on the contest who are cheating by manipulating the software as you have done in the past? And from what I understand this is based entirely upon your analysis of people's reaction times and deeming them impossible?

For the sake of brevity, this is a fair assessment of my opinion.  My initial gripes fell on deaf ears, and you're right. I probably overreacted and dealt with the frustration inappropriately.  I apologize for my methods, but I will NOT retract my accusations.

I can understand Dave, mym, nue, haexxlor, etc. who have many great replays.  These are understandable given LOTS of time and a little luck (see my nevermania 10, and tdf 11 replays for example).  However, a developer that generates these kinds of replays for nearly every level is beyond suspicious.  That combined with a detailed analysis of some of his replays AND an outright refusal to deny the accusations says something.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

Accusing someone and then using their (non-)response as "proof" is circular logic.  It's not going to fly.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

Yes, I think no-one in their right mind would expect Elviz to answer to this "question".

The possibility of cheating exists in all kinds of games. If you (protonspring) choose to enter some kind of competition like the table, you do so to make the game more enjoyable to yourself, knowing that there might be someone who cheats. And with an open source game like this, it is particularly simple, and particularly difficult to detect. You don't have to keep doing it if it does not improve your game experience.

The sub-frame reaction times you cite (which have been your only argument, so far) do not back up your accusations of cheating. Normally, one knows which path one needs to take to make the kind of fast time that one wants, and then try it a lot of times until it works. In principle, one doesn't even need to look at the screen, and repeat the same mouse movements until one gets it just right for once. There's very little "reaction" involved in making table replays.

So protonspring, what would you suggest in terms of pragmatic improvements to the nevertable in order to avoid future incidents like this one?

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

parasti wrote:

Accusing someone and then using their (non-)response as "proof" is circular logic.  It's not going to fly.

...and when I do state the obvious, he'll ignore it.

Every record I've submitted to the Nevertable was made using either the official Windows build of Neverball 1.4.0 (1.4 contest), an unmodified build of Neverball 1.5.x (1.5 contest pre-Nuncabola 0.1), or an unmodified build of Nuncabola (1.5 contest post-Nuncabola 0.1). Nuncabola gameplay compatibility is taken seriously, and I'm not aware of any bugs. I'd have no interest in participating in the contest if any of this were otherwise.

The only thing I've done is erase the exact playing date afterwards because I don't think it should be published. (Though after a couple of months of doing so I became lazy and no longer bothered.) It's still my hope that shino will overwrite the date with the Nevertable upload date just as he overwrites the player with the Nevertable player name.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

For the record, I don't believe Elviz (which may be the problem in the first place), but I digress.

Perhaps it would be more helpful if I recommended some methods which would make it much more difficult to generate illegitimate replays.  I'm no genius, but I know my way around code fairly well.  It's likely that in the time I spent trying to beat Elviz, that a number of methods could have been implemented.

Please direct me to the powers that be, and I'll try to focus my energy into something more useful.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

I think that could be a productive outcome of this little dispute. (putting together ideas of how to do some basic screening of replays for legitimacy)

Ultimately, there will always be some degree of "good faith" involved in an open competition like ours, but it couldn't hurt to make the game less "hack-able"

I will also say, disagreements aside, that it is clear that you (protonspring) have enjoyed the game tremendously like everyone around here and I think we all share a desire to make the game and the contest as good as it can be. Let's focus on that, shall we?

For example, do you have any level design ideas? I have an incomplete set that I want to flesh out.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

tonesfrommars wrote:

For example, do you have any level design ideas? I have an incomplete set that I want to flesh out.

Actually I have lots of design ideas, but I don't have the time to figure out how to design levels.  If there was somewhere I could dump them, so others who are so inclined could build levels, I would do that.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

That's why I ask. If you would care to share some of those ideas with me, I can execute the mapping on any that we both like. You can post in my level set thread HERE. Currently I have 18 levels, so I need 7 more.
Of course, if you prefer and have many ideas, we can start a separate set as a collaboration.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

nue wrote:

So protonspring, what would you suggest in terms of pragmatic improvements to the nevertable in order to avoid future incidents like this one?

Here are my first thoughts here:

Create a replay verification library and distribute a compiled version w/ the neverball source.  In the neverball code, send the replay "events" to the library real-time and let it handle the replay files.  I would recommend that the library check at least the following:

1.  ensure initial acceleration doesn't exceed max (would prevent gravity/angle hacks)
2.  Ensure the maximum tilt angle doesn't ever exceed 20deg or whatever.
3.  Verify that the update count is consistent with 90ups.
4.  Analyze goal time, replay total time, wall-time from cpu and video card fps and frame count.

These steps would catch 99% of all cheats.  Here are a few more which may be overkill, but if someone's doing it, might as well do more:

A.  checksum and maybe even encrypt the stream before writing the file.
B.  Perhaps the library should check itself for internal integrity.
            - like maybe check known binary streams in the lib, "magic/secret" numbers or lib file size, etc.

This should make cheating WAY harder.  Most likely, the amount of work to generate illegitimate replays would be so high, it just wouldn't be worth the work.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

protonspring: As most of us here, I really don't like the way you accuse Elviz, nor the fact you do not provide excuses for posting cheated replays (you only apologize for your overreaction).
That's why I don't know how I could trust you anymore for any replay you've posted or you will post on the table.
My opinion would be to remove of set as personal all your replays.
Anyway, now you seem to show willing to contribute to the game, and you're welcome for that purpose.

Elviz wrote:

In the end it's up to mym and shino to decide, but in my view there's no place on the Nevertable for players like you.

Shino programmed the table with some of my suggestions, but I think decisions are rather up to the community, I mean people who contribute to the game in any aspect.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

mym wrote:

My opinion would be to remove of set as personal all your replays.

Take your pick:

Option#1:  Publicly label me as a hacker and move all of my replays to personal ones.  I'll even put it in my profile.  I'll continue to post, but I'll just upload them as personal ones, so I don't interfere with your contest.

Option #2: Just delete all of my replays and everything that has to do with me.  It won't hurt my feelings, but it may improve the "perceived" integrity of your table.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I think you are incredibly naive if you think my replays are the only questionable ones.  I've already documented and shown how easy it is to create a post illegitimate replays, and I guarantee that there are LOTS of others.

I have made my point, and will move on to something else.  Also, I know it's not fun now, but maybe someday in the future, you'll thank me, but I won't hold my breath on that one. smile

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

Also, let me know I go about contributing code.  I might be interested in coding up some of my ideas for verifying replays.  Is there SVN/CVS anywhere?  Please just point me in the right direction.

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

@protonspring

You have had a long time to post a single example of a questionable replay (other than your own).

I think the time has come to put up - or shut up.

The only cheating ever mentioned on this site, has been skipping levels you haven't legitimately completed. And Neverball has been around for a LONG time!

Just post a single example from the Nevertable with proof - how hard can that be? You seem to be the expert on replay analysis here...

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

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Re: Timer deltas in Nevertable records

themacmeister wrote:

@protonspring

...

The only cheating ever mentioned on this site, has been skipping levels you haven't legitimately completed. And Neverball has been around for a LONG time!

Just post a single example from the Nevertable with proof - how hard can that be? You seem to be the expert on replay analysis here...

*sigh* . . <waves hand like a jedi> . . . . You are right MAC, there are no illegitimate replays on the nevertable.  This is true simply because Neverball has been around a LONG time and no one has mentioned it before.  Also, 90% of my replays are totally legit, simply because no one can prove that they aren't.  hmm

Sarcasm aside, I've made myself an easy target, but I'm not creating this problem, I'm just exposing it.  If this makes you uncomfortable, then ignore me and just believe that everything is OK, and it will be.