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Topic: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

I am trying to convert neverball from OpenGL to OpenGL ES, is it convertible?
Anyone converted it?
can anyone help me in this regards?

2 (edited by Lazrhog 2008-09-10 15:46:32)

Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

you should probably not waste your time doing this (although feel free to continue if you wish).  I have already ported neverball and neverputt to OpenGLES to run on mobile devices (albeit an older version - 1.4.0).  See my other thread regarding the iPhone version for more details.

The source code will be released for this (minus any code that cannot be released under Apples NDA) when both Neverball and Neverputt have been released onto Apples Appstore for the new iPhone 3G.  Anyone can then take the code and port to other OpenGLES devices.

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

Apple's NDA???

You gotta be kidding me!!!

Currently Playing:
Celeste and Electronic Super Joy

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

Hey Lazrhog sir!!! So exciting, so i don't need to do much work on it...hopefully,
if you can gimme source code for neverputt and neverball?
From where and when could i get the source code for both or individual games?
Can you please mail me it on ganesh991@gmail.com ???

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

Well, at some point the code will be committed to the Official™ repo, and then anyone can checkout the code. Though that may be a while.

Mac OS X Xcode project & package maintainer.

If you have some Neverball related files you need hosted somewhere, please send a me forum PM/email.

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

themacmeister wrote:

Apple's NDA???

You gotta be kidding me!!!

Well, I guess GPL is just a three-letter acronym.

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

OKay.  Not sure I have really made things clear smile

When I ported Neverball/Neverputt code to OpenGLES, I decided to make it in the style of a 1 call initialisation, and then a 1 call periodic update under a timer.  Similar to how it is now, but unmuddied by SDL, and any platform specific code.

The 1 call initialisation and everything recursively underneath the periodic timer function will be released as open source.  It's just my modified versions of Neverball and Neverputt underneath there.  No other libraries, no SDL, no platform specific code, nothing.   

The only thing covered by the NDA would be the iphone specific initialisation of the device, graphics surface, touch screen handling and peridic timer.  All of those things would need to be re-written to port the openGLES version.

Okay, not sure I have made anything clearer at all after typing all that.   I am an open source advocate, I just don't want to get sued smile   Is that OK ?   It's not like anyone is ina mad rush for it anyway.  The only interesting platform coming up is Pandora, which I would quite like to do the port for anyway, and maybe some of the new phones, of which I am completely UNinterested in.

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

Lazrhog wrote:

The only thing covered by the NDA would be the iphone specific initialisation of the device, graphics surface, touch screen handling and peridic timer.  All of those things would need to be re-written to port the openGLES version.

Without seeing the specific implementation my guess would be that it would NOT be OK. You can not legally distribute such an application. If you want to argue that a part of what you're distributing is a separate program completely unrelated to Neverball then you should be very careful in separating them.

Okay, not sure I have made anything clearer at all after typing all that.   I am an open source advocate, I just don't want to get sued smile   Is that OK ?

The GPL is a legal requirement just as much as an NDA. If you want to violate some legal requirement please violate the NDA instead smile

It's not like anyone is ina mad rush for it anyway.  The only interesting platform coming up is Pandora, which I would quite like to do the port for anyway, and maybe some of the new phones, of which I am completely UNinterested in.

That's not relevant. The requirements of GPL do not depend on how much use people have for the sources. And I doubt the stuff under NDA is such an important secret either smile

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

I am not doing anything without the original Authors permission and consent.

10 (edited by uau 2008-09-14 15:45:26)

Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

You certainly have not received permission from all copyright holders that would legally allow you to use the current development version under terms different from the GPL. If your work is based solely on 1.4.0 then the list of people whose permission you need is smaller, and I'm not sure exactly who it includes; however even 1.4.0 did already contain work from people other than rlk, such as Mehdi's levels. Have you received permission from Mehdi and all other involved people to use their work under some other license different from the GPL, or have they given rlk permission to relicense their work?

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

everything I have done is based on 1.4.0.  As for the levels, I have no idea.  If this all gets too complicated then I will just forget the whole thing.  I am not going to put my apple developer status at risk by violating their NDA.

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

Lazrhog wrote:

As for the levels, I have no idea.

Well you should verify that you have permission from every copyright holder before you distribute Neverball content in a way that does not meet the requirements of the GPL.

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

If Apple forces you not to 'release' certain code for free, then we must make the iPhone version a separate thing, under a different license. But if this is the case, since Neverball is released under the GPL, doesn't that mean it can never be released under a non-free license?

Mac OS X Xcode project & package maintainer.

If you have some Neverball related files you need hosted somewhere, please send a me forum PM/email.

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

I don't see why the iPhone specific code is important.  The remaining source would be in a perfect position to port to another platform which is surely all that someone else would want to do.  Especially a more powerful and open platform like pandora.

I think I'm going to work on something else for a bit until "everyone" decides what can and cannot be done.

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

I'm fairly sure that, at the very least, all that's needed here is some sort of exception granted to you by Robert, making sure that the NDA conditions can be met, that as much of the GPL as possible remains in effect, and that the parts of your modifications not covered by the NDA can and will be made available under the terms of the GPL.  You need to actually talk to him about it, though.  Regarding Mehdi's contributions, if he doesn't agree with whatever exception you come up with or you choose not to get his opinion at all, you can simply exclude those game assets from the distribution.  I don't think there's anyone else's copyright in 1.4.0.

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

I have been in constant communication with Robert for the past few weeks.  However, those discussions have mainly centred around neverputt than neverball (as that is in a more mature state).  I don't think neverball's UI meets Apples very strict UI requirements so that needs a lot more work to get in a releasable state.

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

Right, I forgot Neverputt.  Neverputt 1.4.0 includes two courses from Pasi Kallinen (paxed).

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

There are plenty of open source iPhone projects out there already, Apple is not going to go after Neverball...

Anyways, you can certainly release the source to other registered iPhone developers without "breaking" the NDA.

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

To weigh in on the topic: Lazrhog is working with my complete support.  We have been in communication via email.  The GPL does not preclude the sub-licensing of specific versions of GPL-ed code under non-free terms.  As the sole author of 1.4.0, it is my prerogative to allow this.  Yes, Mehdi does need to consent to the use of his levels if they are to be included.

This situation is not so complicated.  We'll release Neverball and Neverputt on the iPhone.  Lazrhog's GL ES code will eventually make its way into the trunk, since no NDA covers the use of GL ES.  The Apple-specific stuff will never be seen by anyone but Lazrhog.  No problem.

On a related topic, we've touched upon the notion of selling Neverputt for $1, but this situation is a lot more difficult.  There's just no straightforward way for that income to be distributed.  Despite the fact that it's 1.4.0 code, it would be an insult to the community to omit any contributor.  And with Lazrhog in the UK, me in the US, and others everywhere, contracts, splitting, transferring, and taxation become unsolvable problems.  While both Lazrhog and I are registered iPhone developers, the system does not simplify this problem.  If anyone has opinions on this, please say so.

The long and the short of it: Lazrhog is doing fantastic work.  Let's release it and be happy about it.

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

thanks for clearing a lot of that up smile

.... Although I suspect this will start a whole other discussion going, but that can only be a good thing.

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

rlk wrote:

The Apple-specific stuff will never be seen by anyone but Lazrhog.  No problem.

In some ways that's a bit sad. If Lazrhog moves onto other things and the community wants to continue development, we'll have to go through all this again. And I assume it will become a little more convoluted if Larhog wants to migrate to 1.5+ codebase (which has more contributors, some of whom might not be around, etc. etc.).

rlk wrote:

selling Neverputt

It is pretty awkward. I don't know much about what the options are. Does one have to charge for an iPhone app? If there was a price on it, would you be interested in profit or perhaps donating it to some Free Software related body? We could always set up the Neverfoundation to handle and distribte funds, lol.

Out of curiosity, are Neverputt and Neverball being separate apps/projects in this regard?

Cheese
==========
cheesetalks.net

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

with respect to the code you won't get to see, it won't make any difference to the portability.  Trust me it is ok - I have kept the code completely separate with independent handlers for user input etc. They can be provided as they do not use apples frameworks.  Plus I really want to do the pandora port smile. And that is open source completely, so you will see how to set up the bit that's missing.  I'm not going anywhere. 

I just don't want to do the nokia port or the google android port etc.  That's where the community will come in hopefully.  Mobile is the future.  This is just the beginning......

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

And this is a perfect example of how the GPL has nothing to do with freedom.

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

I don't really agree...

Cheese
==========
cheesetalks.net

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Re: OpenGL to OpenGL ES

Well the NDA is lifted so now what? smile